(baby dont hurt me no more) Maybe JMs associates and enablers thought the most loving thing was to go along with JM for the sake of the everlasting benefits in heaven that would be experienced in the future by the people who were being abused, manipulated, fleeced here under the sun, but who nevertheless were hearing the gospel (as they understood gospel), even though it looks to us like it was being preached from false motives. In full disclosure, not even a full prof or anything big, just a lecturerand a snarky middle aged guy who was such a great lawyer I had to get a job teaching to make a living. I feel like Jesus is a million miles off, and I know thats got to me my fault, not His, because frankly, I ignored Gods nudges at each and every abusive church we attended (there were three), its not like I can blame Him. If a church tries to appoint elders who dont meet the qualifications for eldershipthe church dies. You have also put a few of the people fighting for the cause of God change through the ringer with some of your comments to them on twitter fb. Funny, but I still have dreams about the former pastor. Bill Hybels, miracle seeker-driven leader, stands credibly accused of sexual harassment and molestation. I am sorry that my concerns about the institutional church from day one cause you distress. apostle-schmapostle. And of course you. I suppose those are the sort of preachers Jesus had in mind when He said: Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven. I read that as a statement, not a post open for discussion, and an appeal to stop the speculation and kibitzing over a tragic situation. Like they are so far in and so much of their identity comes from being part of the group that the thought of just leaving would be like jumping off of a cliff? Let him call for the elders [PRESBUTEROS] of the church, and let them pray over him (James 5:14). I can only imagine what it was like for children. You are wrong on that point.The NT writers do make the point that there should be payment and encourage readers to do so. Further, a cental message of the Bible, as I learned over many, many years, is that mankind is fallen, and religious leaders/system are fallen, in many ways more fallen than the secular/hunanistic world that so many religous leaders rail against. . Even during Christs life the disciples were weighing out who was most important and who would take the position above all the others. Another campus grew out of the prayers and intercession of a core group in Chicagos North Shore. His client, the alleged molester, told him they were false. It is very difficult to regain trust when the most trusted abuse it. Consider the following Scriptures: And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors [POIMEN] and teachers (Ephesians 4:11). All this, with the goal of getting me, my family and the Executive Elders removed ," MacDonald wrote. God doesnt need Harvest and in fact Id be willing to say the spirit of Jezebel has been leading that place since the early 2000s. The neocalvinist church where I was an elder, which started off without one big head leader who called himself pastor, and people generally treating people decently, lasted a year or so before the guys found this amazing, godly 5-point calvinist whod been on John MacArthurs staff at GCC and had been a leader in SGMand then he took over and then he brought in his right-hand man from another state to be the leader of the elder team and then those two decided that the elders in place had been given too much unbiblical power over the pastor and so we all had to cede all authority to him and just be good friends without all these unbiblical checks and balances on the man whom the Lord had hand-picked to be over us. I still believe that Jesus lived and the NT is reliable. The first step for anyone who insists upon an institution with paid leaders (I would argue against such) is to limit those salaries to moderate living wages, in line with or less than what the majority of their members live with. You sound like an attorney who just sent me a letter stating that I posted false statements by a victim. Amen to that Max! Many are passionate about their cause, but it is far too often found to be a misplaced passion. You have done some confession, but in private only. MacDonald pulled Harvest Bible Chapel from the fellowship, breaking the link between the two. they are kind. Here are four things you should know about The Chosen: Photo courtesy: VidAngel. Jesus held onto me and he will hold onto you. Harvest Bible Chapel has fired its founder and senior pastor James MacDonald following years of controversial behavior, financial scandal and allegations of bullying and intimidation. Your church, at which you played a significant role, is a five alarm dumpster fire and there are thousands of actual souls who have been affected by this admitted scandal. The problem with deception is that you dont know you are deceived because you are deceived. So instead of trying to defend these rascals, I prefer to inform and warn the church about the wolves in their midst rather than giving them a break. In every church I was part of the pastor put forth a list of men to choose from, and the pastor was appointed from outside the church. The terminal stage 4 cancer exists. Vincent: Man if you are looking for a physical church to be perfected and wholly sanctified, by mere men, you will be disalusioned. If anything, out of all the ashes has come a humbling of my spirit.No longer do I feel like I know, or need to know, or could even remotely grasp the answers to so much of life. Then, I started laughing! The first service in this new house of God was held on September 10, 1995. Pathetic at best. Made a lot of money, enjoyed the fruits of fame that was a product of his professed following of Jesus. To whom was it sent? He was a cynical grandstands and shameless self-promoter. That, in my humble, fallible opinion, explains much of the evil that has taken place in this world. Pastor showed the torture and crucifixion scene to the whole church. I am not saying that I am a proponent of hierarchy. As of 2020, they now gather as City Line Church. Maybe you missed the point of her post. They are crumbling under their current debt load that FRED saddled them with; still he brags. Why you gotta be so mean? Taylor Swift. maybe a z darn, its just the right word. I dont feel the joy that my faith used to give. In 2008, the church was listed by Outreach magazine as one of the 100 fastest-growing churches in America. Dallas, his dad Jerry Jenkins, and James MacDonald also played poker together. Today, CBS Chicago featured Former Harvest Bible Chapel Members Want $72,000 In Donations Refunded, After Pastor James MacDonald Fired Their strong Christian beliefs led Scott and Marsha Thompson to volunteer at Harvest Bible Chapel, and donate more than $72,000 over the course of several years. Churches that are run like cults do not encourage true friendships. Jesus said that you cannot serve both Him and Mammon. Im, however, convinced that the original disciples didnt completely understand what Jesus intended, nor were they able to carry out His intentions without sin in the mixture. Now if some pastor or group of elders is abusing people, then gloves off. elastigirl: why does it matter what Max thinks, I took your text out of context a bit, so forgive me. Why, dontcha know God inspired Paul to speak his thoughts, and me your trusted pastor to interpret them rightly? Consider the listing of qualifications which Paul wrote to Titus and Titus: A BISHOP MUST BE Good words, Fisher. Vincent: you must have first hand knowledge and part of that fellowship in some fashion. TS00: It appears he has been a poser, a bully and a thug for a very long time. Director Dallas Jenkins on the Goshen, Utah, set of "The Chosen" Season 2. Why? They are increasing in excellence in academics and athletics, and all that God has in store for the next chapter. Im not holding my breath. Is there a foolproof system that cant be gamed? mostly because God doesnt need professional christians and their institution in the first place.. We only saw the one tomb. James and you have lived a lifestyle for a long time of trying to prove that Jesus lied. Founded in 1988, it has grown to seven campuses in the Chicago metropolitan area. If you truly believed your comment you would not have posted it. You might find people here are a lot more willing to retract and set things right than the crowd youve run with. It's God who opens doors, but we must walk through them. It was leaked. Open Discussion Page. Accept that and use this springboard given by God to be the leader God always intended you to be. We are living through a decades-long trial of betrayal, and I have found myself weak of faith these last few years. They are all one and the same. But one way or the other, my instincts about Hall dont alter my opinion that Dee likely has good reasons to not want to use this forum to air a familys personal tragedy any more. If Dees afraid of Hall, she sure hasnt done a very good job of living it out. Clement may be writing as if those offices are an established fact, but for all we know, they could have been set up a few years previously as an organizational attempt and they were used to it. Jmac is an uncare bear, so is Dallas Jenkins for that matter. But not genuine relationships. Concerned for the vulnerable animals safety, he left his own gun by its side. But, assuming Paul would be cheering them on nevertheless, that opens up a door for whoever to bring in whatever in attempts to do church (and thats exactly what we have in America). Samuel Conner: people who were being abused, manipulated, fleeced here under the sun, but who nevertheless were hearing the gospel (as they understood gospel), even though it looks to us like it was being preached from false motives. This is why I was born, and for this I have come into the world, to testify to the Truth. Some might even suggest it seems suspiciously tied to new disclosures concerning films he made, gambling issues which have also concerned both Dallas and his father, etc. Wartburgers, perhaps they are coming to a church near you! Ive read that the sweet spot in church size, that combines small enough to know the flock (and small enough that all the flock can know the leaders) and large enough to be endowed with a diverse array of gifts is around 300. The Chosen is an artistic retelling of biblical events and it never claims to be a replacement for Scripture nor an addition to the holy Word of God. If I understand your former function at Harvest (based on what you said in your letter) your job involved presenting and tightly controlling the Harvest narrative through media. all of this is deeply regrettable. and bring me another beer. Imagine the chaos if we all put our full names out there, along with the names of our (former) churches and the various miscreants, lay and ordained, living and dead, who assaulted and extorted us over the decades. Id only add that the scar and damage to my faith as a result of Harvest is real, deeply painful, and permanent. He is currently Director of Media at Harvest Bible Chapel in Chicago, where he directed the award-winning short film "The Ride" and is currently developing multiple feature films. After six months exclusively online, we returned to in person services in September 2020. Yes, because he delivered the pew what they wanted in a church experience. and on the iceberg? It didnt reveal anything new. Dont get me wrong, Pauls writings have many great and wonderful things to say, but when the descriptive gets blurred with the universally prescriptive, what results is just another destructive ideology. +++++++++++++++++++++. I do not see how Hall could seriously be held responsible for the tragic suicide of the young man, but am appreciative that the whole sorry event led him to reevaluate his heart. dee: along with all the boys at SEBTS who dont want to leave the area so there are popup churches in every strip mall. Bidding me still to fight on. Both Steve Carter and Jenkins waited for public outcry and then expressed their moral outrage. Whew! Fisher, thank you for those words of life and hope. This verse came to mind: For it is the time for the judgment to have begun from the house of God; and if from us first, what will be the outcome of those disobeying the gospel of God? (1 Peter 4:17) The business-first model that seems so pervasive and knocks down just about any scrutiny until there is videotaped evidence would seem to fit somewhere in that spectrum, no? In church context, it may even be worse than the secular business context because in addition to the objective institutional power wielded by the narcissist CEO, there is the presumption of divine authority which legitimates the misuse of power. I read your posts as a searing, agonized, utterly sincere *cri de ceour. Bayloy University Medical Center, 3500 Gaston Ave., Dallas, TX 75246 carlos_bll@yahoo.com Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia, Diocese of Chicago and Detroit Bishop Peter Loukianoff 4/26/2019 Community Bible Church Ed Newton and Sean Metcalf 2477 N. 1604 East San Antonio TX 78232 5/1/2018 Harvest Bible Chapel Tampa Bay Rev. that exploited the public of Harvest Bible Chapel (the profits of which you enjoyed and benefited from). I truly believe God provides the grace for elders to walk in the attributes in 1Tim 3, You dont have to watch a person for very long to discern whether that person is a grace filled believer or not. We must realize that there are certain qualifications given concerning elders. We swore our allegiance to him. Jenkins is jealous that he couldnt run the con as well as Jmac. As my friend says, suck it up buttercup., Max: I believe if Jesus was here today, He would be sitting around the campfire drinking beer with the boys!, In all likelihood, He probably would be. So James has only paid a fraction of taxes that the rest of us little people would have had to without the luxury of the Pastor title and access to over $40M a year in donations. To the American church which is playing games with the gospel in both pulpit and pew the Apostle John still shouts Come out of her, my people, lest you take part in her sins, lest you share in her plagues (Revelation 18:4). It is designed to provide a worship experience for people in remote communities or for those who otherwise cannot join us live for the service. They dont want you to have real relationships; the systems designed to prevent them. Seriously, I believe 100% that the theological DNA is the problem, and that Truth was genetically modified centuries ago. Harvest Bible Chapel is an evangelical Christian megachurch in Rolling Meadows, Illinois. Yet another reason why the financial transparency laws for religious non-profit entities needs to change. Gone on any safaris or gambling junkets with MacDonald & your dad? Years ago, I decided to go forth with my name on this blog I did it to help people who have reason to suspect that their identity could cause them problems with out of control churches If yo have a problem with anonymity, take it up with me. You have lived in a place too long where you have not had to embrace it. Ken F (aka Tweed): I think the issue of the type of leadership structure is much less important than the character of the people running the show. His LLC scheme was dreamed up because James announced that no new debt would be taken on until the $43M in debt was paid off in full. My name is on all my posts and frankly I find your whining annoying. The word contains with it a reference to age. Although, in a few places in Scripture he paused to advise us that he was speaking about a matter offering his opinion rather than what God was saying. wolves among the sheep, earning their money, Only a public attack and a loss of financial success would drive change at Harvest., Thank you, Fisher, for the encouragement. Law Prof: Years later, the church long ago destroyed by heavy abuse and the former members scattered, a number of them atheists today, that drama pastor is now into the New Age. I had a churchgoer tell me once in a Bible Study to Lighten up Max. What makes you think you get to excuse yourself from the table? A person who thinks they are qualified, is someone who may need to take some time to discern whether thats true. Yep, thats the house on a private lake, Thompson said. these are their personal standards. Unless it was a danger to someone. Thats too deep to answer. ME MAN! If they depend entirely on the good will or humility of the elder-elects themselves and (no-teeth-allowed, no mechanism for) church members having a say? And they swam out to each other through the swirling stream they came all of this is deeply regrettable. Thrilled for both of them as they start their life together. Sunday services, weekly small groups, other events all give meaning to peoples lonely lives, and the rest is mostly fluff. After seven years, the growing congregation of 500 raised funds in six weeks to secure a former warehouse at 800 S Rohlwing Road in Rolling Meadows. If the elders arent spiritual men, consider another church. But the manner in which these charlatans lead indicates they dont really know Him they just use Him. John: JMac should never pastor another church ever. David: Fred Adams former Harvest CFO has a serious gambling addiction. My current frustration, as someone who wants to get it right, is not knowing how to get it right in light of all the historical evidence. ME GREAT WHITE HUNTER! The only church Fred has ever worked for his Harvest. Wonderful, on point comment. You were *in charge* so to speak for years. With so much at stake, it can be very tempting to cut corners for the sake of what is viewed as a larger good. He should never again have a say in how people live their lives. We were hissing at them Close you eyes! and doing our best to throw ourselves in front of the smallest ones. They been negotiating a retirement package before all the properties foreclose and theres no more cash! My new son-in-law is a United Methodist pastor. It just means there was (and is) nothing in that church resembling a true church. Please think about all the others who will fall under these cultic practices if these perpetrators and their deeds are not brought into the open. Once credibility is lost, it is hard to regain. The false institutional church was reconstituted by Constantine, who asserted the right to define and regulate what was orthodox and permissible. I am not suggesting that this is or is not the way Jesus intended for his church. DallasHow selfishIs it all about you?Or, is your statement for the greater good of countless others? Personally, I call bull. Ken F (aka Tweed): I only point out that the historical evidence is not what we protestants want it to be. How you understand the word? We celebrated Gods blessing of 100 church plants in just 14 years in 2014. Amy Moore, Theres a difference between people who hunt professionally for a living, indigenous hunters who hunt as part of their tribal culture, and rich guys like James McDonald who do it to knock another item off their bucket list. I know some people will disagree with me, but thats just my opinion. How arrogant is that Dallas. If I find solace anywhere, its in the quiet moments of solitude and silence wherein I sense anew that the mysteries of life are vast, and that my continued pursuit of that which is beautiful and simple and true is enough for now. From all the people I know in those churches, I think thats exactly what happens! Even during confusion, never-ending drama, attacks and . Now, four of Harvest Bible Chapels campuses have Hope Centers to provide food and other resources to families in across Chicagoland to provide help and hope found only in Jesus. He promised never to leave me, What they all have in common is serving self interest, whereas the crux of the life and message of Jesus is that the way to life is to lay down self and serve others. Example: I use my actual name on Twitter. Thats too deep to answer. Hours . Thanks so much for passing on much needed information. in the end, its what i think, what you think. Dallas, his dad Jerry Jenkins, and James MacDonald also played poker together. God reaches out to us, one on one, and he will continue to administer his healing balm to your soul. That is part of our fallen world. They can be seen all over Evangelicalism. Man if you are looking for a physical church to be perfected and wholly sanctified, by mere men, you will be disalusioned. When will the madness end?! Pingback: Quote for the day | Civil Commotion, When was this statement made and to whom? And who appoints the elders (Disciples are no longer with us) if every church is autonomous? And not many have truly repented I think. This often brings to my mind the movie Bridge Over the River Kwai. Jesus said it is basically impossible that any rich man ever makes it into Gods Kingdom, and you and the others have ignored that. In the history of the church, which is most seductive: money, sex, or power? Too bad he doesnt understand that it can be used just as much for good as it can be for bad. In fact, I raised my coffee cup in their honor this morning and said to the pugs, May they get their money back.. Almost that exact thing happened at the neocalvinist church I attended. God put you there, who are you to take yourself out? In an interview with the Chicago Sun Times, Jenkins said, "We feel like if people can binge watch . Amy Moore: Truth the WHOLE truth is the only antidote More leaders must take a stand and shine the light of truth. New TWW post. , but my fans urged me to stay. If church leaders throughout Christendom wont take a stand to expose wayward peers and rebuke their ministry endeavors, it will be up to the pew to do this important task to inform and warn others in the Body of Christ to beware. Dallas Jenkins, the creator of the most successfully crowdfunded series of all time, "The Chosen," said he's setting the record straight for the last time on the matter of whether he believes Mormons are Christians. [] its unfortunate that people are making them public. Thompson walked away from Harvest in 2013. However, when the Son of Man comes, will He find faith on the earth? Luke 18:8. Please forgive me. And thats the cold, hard truth. The setup of elder rule is, in effect, completely unaccountable rule-by-crony. My current frustration, as someone who wants to get it right, is not knowing how to get it right in light of all the historical evidence. I mean, everyone thought Willow Creek was that church. I wish it wasnt so. Each church is completely autonomous, and thus, as it was written, appoint elders in every church, Truly, we need to follow the design God laid out for the church, for in so doing, we will benefit. This is how all men will know that you are my disciples, because you have such love for one another.. It has reference to one who is seen as a care giver, or guardian for the church. Neither Dean Butters nor I wanted our letters published. I wonder whether it might not be better to simply abandon the entire property-owning paradigm and return to the original practice of meeting in public places (for large groups) and in homes (for small groups). It is difficult to not imagine that the overly generous salaries passed out at Harvest have a lot to do with the leaders who refuse to call for the opening of the books. And I know that we are falling far short of appropriating the spiritual resources available to us as Christians to make a difference in this world not with what we think, but what we know. Back Small Group Harvest Kids Harvest Students College Men Women Harvest Worship Disablities Prayer Care Outreach . Anonymity is not the same thing as cowardice, but thanks so much for playing that tired old game. But your comment proves you are doing exactly what you oppose. Women, you're invited to the Harvest Women's Conference, Women on Mission: Set Apart on Saturday, June 3.
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